Adam Croft Boni Wagner-Stafford Book Promotion & Marketing Advice Branding Brands Fiction and Nonfiction Latest Orna Ross

Book Branding and Author Branding: What's in the Name? #AskALLi

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In our first new exhibit, which compares views on fiction and non-fiction, Orna Ross, Adam Croft, and Boni Wagner-Stafford talk about the branding of a work: when to writer with a model, when branding should give attention to a e-book, or a ebook collection. Which elements must be thought-about?

What about pen names? Do you have to be like that? Or perhaps even multiple? What are the penalties? Reap the benefits of this session on branding greatest practices.

Listed here are some highlights:

Adam Croft, Branding Fiction vs. Nonfiction

I feel in the event you marketed yourself as a fiction author, you & # 39; Need to immerse readers in the world you create. Whereas the info in writing, you set your self in, or I by the approach, as a result of I’m head of the guru-expert.

Boni Wagner-Stafford on What's the Brand

It's all you say, every part you do, it's the colors you employ, because how you gown. That's how you write. It's your authoring surroundings. It's a strategy to design your deck.

Using Orna Ross Pencil Names

We see this occurring in indie mode, where writers truly use totally different names for various collection as a result of they don't need to confuse Amazon canine both.

We invite you to hitch our organization and grow to be a self-publishing ally. You can do so at http://allianceindependentauthors.org.

Take heed to Costume Fiction and Non-fiction Podcast on Book Branding

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Orna Rna, director of ALLI, founded in 2012 and started the similar yr at the London Book Truthful. After the conventional publication, Orna took again her rights from Penguin and revealed with the titles and remedy she had all the time deliberate. As a literary agent and writing instructor behind journalism, Orna has labored with ALL on several occasions, incomes her identify as one in every of The Bookseller's 100 Greatest Publishers. Orna writes award-winning fiction and poetry, leads the Patreon web page for poets and poetry lovers, and an lively writer's website. His position is to help remove artistic poverty by means of digital publishing and enterprise. You’ll find him on most days on Twitter and he sends poems and provides to poets on Instagram: @ornaross.

Adam Croft has bought almost two million books so far and is one in every of the most profitable unbiased publishers and one among the best-selling authors of current years, selling books in over 120 nations. In February 2017, Only The Fact turned a worldwide bestseller and reached number one in each Amazon USA and Amazon UK, turning into the best-selling guide in the world at the moment. On the similar day, Amazon's Basic Author Rank made Adam the world's most read writer, J.Okay. Rowling in second place. In March 2018, the University of Bedfordshire awarded Adam an honorary doctorate in artwork, the highest educational degree in the United Kingdom, in recognition of his literary providers. Visit his web site, Indie Writer Concept, or find him on Twitter.

Boni Wagner-Stafford is a non-fiction author coach, writer, ghost writer and improvement editor. Since 2015, he has been serving to other writers publish memoirs, anthology, educational and journalistic Nonfiction books. He also miraculously crossed the line with a few his personal titles when the required gazillion aspect was completed. He’s an award-winning television reporter, speak show host and news anchor who later led public sector groups in media communications, matter management and strategic communications planning, after which he washes his arms as a artistic entrepreneur. Visit his Ingenium Books website, find him on Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn.

Read the transcript

Orna Ross: Whats up everyone, and welcome to the new present here on the Ask ALLi podcast and on Facebook Stay. Actually completely happy to see so lots of you right here. We are slightly shocked on the internet at present. considered one of us is in ireland, one among us in mexico.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Me!

Orna Ross: Let me introduce to you and to these of you who might not yet know, to my proper or probably to your left is Boni Wagner-Stafford, who has been Communications Supervisor at ALL for some time, and Boni has labored in broadcasting in the past and beside, in the center or, as I see, but I'm not quite positive what you'll see, is Mr. Adam Croft, which in all probability doesn’t need any presentation, and I'm Orin Ross, director of Allin. We’re all writers and we write fiction and non-fiction. And we have now this new match in a new sort of exhibition as a result of we thought and talked about the proven fact that should you write fiction, you often speak about books and you imply novels.

And should you write non-fiction, you tend to talk about books and imply any sort of non-fiction written: memoir or how or whatever. Nevertheless, the self-publishing tips have to be tailor-made slightly in a different way for fiction and non-fiction, so we thought it will be really fascinating to point out every week if we put together a theme and then apply fiction on the one hand and non-fiction on the other. So now I ask Boni and Adam to introduce themselves, speak a bit bit about their books they are writing, and then we transfer on to as we speak's theme. So, women first.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Okay, women first. Hey. So I, like Orna talked about, is a journalism and broadcasting backgrounds and information I have written a few books, one among which was written collectively. I’ve been to the anthology of cats. My cat is out, so it doesn't need to make too much noise at present, and lately a brand new query on the way to develop ebook advertising strategies on your non-fiction. I work with non-fiction writers. Have you learnt if it's a memoir or how fiction, or typically journalistic information, and I have fiction in progress, and I have to say, fiction is simply more durable than non-fiction. No, I hats down, I bow to you who hit the fiction park. It's very troublesome for me.

Orna Ross: Okay, we'll see if it modifications in the coming weeks and months.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Proper.

Orna Ross: Adam? Yes, I will let you introduce yourself now to everyone. Do not be modest.

Adam Croft: Nicely, I've type of gone the different means. I began out as a writer of fiction for many, a few years to return and bend over the individuals's strain, who want info from me writing issues, some sort of steerage, due in all probability from a ten yr period for which I’m an indie publisher. So I began, I feel it's in all probability solely a yr in the past, my first non-fiction guide came out and I now have three. I agree with the Boni that I feel the writing is far easier. It requires quite a bit much less thought course of because I converse as I converse now only with my finger where, you recognize, I don't have to worry about inventing characters and getting issues dramatic and what you could have. It's just about passing on info, in addition to via such issues. In any case, I have a tendency to seek out fiction hell of quite a bit simpler and truly quite addictive behavior because of this, as a result of I can hit e-book, non-fiction, fiction relatively shortly compared to what I often write your themselves into these holes.

Orna Ross: Yeah and me, we both write. Though I consider myself as a author and a poet, I in all probability write more non-fiction, which is unusual. However it’s. Nonfiction books, in my opinion, are less difficult and on one degree in the sense that it’s. I feel you’ll know what you need to write about and the impression you want the e-book to have on the reader. Typically you gained't know what you're doing on earth till you're virtually executed, or you might have accomplished the first sketch.

And the novel takes a long time and as a result of they're fairly heavy, traditionally researched and all that stuff and writing and rewriting and the similar as poetry, rewriting for a special display, I know. So we hope you get some of the totally different subjects we're speaking about from these two perspectives. We would like you to speak about how you expertise it as a result of it is all the time totally different for all Indians and we additionally need you to publish your questions and questions. When you simply put them in the comment field there on Fb.

We use the Be Stay platform to convey all three of you collectively, one thing Fb doesn't permit and the remark is slightly delayed. For those who put your comment in the box, we’ll process it before the finish of the program. So at present our theme is that we speak about branding, and particularly the query “Do you brand your books and you’ll have totally different pen names for the several types of books you write, especially in case you are writing fiction and non-fiction, ? Or do you imply that the writer's identify carries readers along? And the numerous explanation why you may do one thing or another have been seen by way of the lens of fiction and non-fiction.

So once we did that type of pre-preview preparation, Adam stated something fascinating that was when he began out and didn't actually assume a lot about branding, and definitely if he began now, he would assume lots. So I'll start there on that topic. Are you able to inform individuals what you meant by that at Adam and also about your brand technique around fiction and non-fiction?

Adam Croft: I feel I meant that like most things, I obtained it fallacious for an extended, very long time, and by accident stumbled upon the proper option to do issues, and now I'm making an attempt to make myself appear spectacular by making an attempt to sound aware of what I'm speaking about. I feel that was the level I used to be making an attempt to get by way of. I feel there are two very totally different brands for fiction and non-fiction. I feel as a fiction author I mean myself personally as a writer, perhaps an entertainer, a storyteller, You already know, the new one has to read the writer, issues like that, you turn into a bit of extra "you" I feel when you market your self as a fiction author worlds, collection, so perhaps it's not a lot personal branding. You need to immerse readers in the creation world. While the knowledge in the literature you place your self, or me, anyway, as a result of I’m a head strain of guru-expert, you realize that somebody who has info that can clear up the reader's drawback or provide some sort of answer, to vary their lives in some

I imply, for example, coping with methods of considering indie writer books which have me in relation to the undeniable fact that you realize that I have bought 2 million data, appeared in the BBC and newspapers, and all of this stuff, which makes it a perfect goal group, which is different indie authors, sit down and assume, "Well, wow, this the guy needs to know what he's talking about. " So it is, I feel you branded the info you have got and the place you will have with nonfiction and fiction, you’re selling the world, the characters and the dream you created.

Orna Ross: Okay, in a second we'll be back to the method you've managed to get these two very several types of books in your personal software. And Boni, what about you and branding? You’re considering of utilizing a special identify completely. Tell us why and what it’s and what is it about branding? Is it a private factor?

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Sure, nice query. After which I need to go back to talking about what we speak about branding. However that's sort of how I received into this desirous about branding. I sort of have a layered background. I've been married a couple of occasions. I’ve had four totally different names when serving as a journalist on a really public profile who labored for CBC, and so forth. in Western Canada. I used to be Boni Fox. And now I'm Boni Wagner-Stafford. It's such an extended story that there is a piece in the Globe and Mail that goes into it, however the books so revealed have been referred to as Boni Wagner-Stafford and it's a really lengthy title that takes lots of real estate at the bottom of the guide and sort of awkward , so I’ve discovered myself waking up in the middle of the night time to go, "Hmm, should I just go back to Boni with Fox?" It is extremely brief. You already know, tight, there's a small cache. I’ve some type of audience, if any of them are nonetheless alive, that was a long time ago, but on my broadcasting days. So, notably with respect to non-fiction, I questioned, does it really make sense. So I don't know, I haven't determined what to do about this. However it's fun to speak about.

Orna Ross: And again to the question we're speaking about, what we're talking about branding.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Branding. Yeah. So branding, as quickly as you begin to say branding, it might have the which means you recognize, woo woo. "Oh my God, you're not going to go down that road." But really, branding is, there's an excellent quote from Jeff Bezos. He says, "Your brand is what other people say about you when you're not in the room." In order that's all you say, all you do, it's the colours you employ, it's how you gown. That's the way you write. It's your authoring setting. It's a method to design your deck. So all this stuff belong to everybody. And I used to be going to tell Adam that you simply actually need to be able to label your self an professional on the basis of non-fiction.

Otherwise, why do individuals hassle to learn your e-book, but I feel the most necessary thing is to be you. And so the brand have to be real or else it’ll never maintain on. So you should find the real parts in your brand that can help you be an professional or authority in case you are non-fiction. And in the case of fiction, I needed to select up something else you stated, Adam, that you simply actually imply in your world. Once I read fiction and read fairly a bit of fiction, I’m going to the writer. And once I know what this author is writing about, I read extra about the writer and we know that it's all you understand, making an inventory and getting your identify out there. But I'm in what you consider it. Once I know a writer, I comply with it. And so it is the writer's mark, not necessarily of the world.

Adam Croft: I feel it's an fascinating character and … Sorry.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Go forward, sorry.

Adam Croft: Yes. No, I find it an fascinating sign that totally different readers strategy issues in a different way. You already know, all readers are on the lookout for this, and it will impress all potential readers. I feel there’s only a method to distinguish between these two. And of course, when you set yourself up as an skilled, not a fiction writer, this stuff have to be true.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Proper.

Adam Croft: You’ll be able to't, you don't know, make your self an professional when you're not. And there’s also a substantial amount of trust that I feel comes from a personal story. Once I inform individuals the best way to get to that point, I feel they may then construct that private character and confidence that helps non-fiction first.

Orna Ross: Yeah, in response to this very fascinating question, whether or not it's about the writer or the world or the characters or Have you learnt, I feel it relies upon rather a lot on genres. So I feel, for example, literary fiction readers, once they like a author, they learn lots of unbiased books written by that author, however saying fantasy or a variety of crime, individuals want characters who, you realize, say Detective Novels, they want the primary character over and over And again one thing else it can be. In fantasy, it can be the world they comply with.

And so we see this occurring in indie mode, the place writers truly use totally different names for various collection as a result of they don't need to combine Amazon too. They need to seem, and particularly those writers who’re unique to KU or Amazon, but not just them, and they want when additionally they appear in loudspeakers that they are the similar sort of guide and as a result of the algorithm mixes properly in the event you write it like me , like four several types of books, Adam, you even have some clever technique around all of this.

Since you didn't want, for example, an indie writer's assume guide to seem someplace, however you didn't need pretend writers to seem in a set of fiction that you simply didn't want, like Joanna Penn or David Gaughran or anybody who emerges in history. So tell us the way you manage it? As a result of I feel it was truly pretty sensible.

Adam Croft: Yeah, I feel it depends whether you could have another identify or not, it is dependent upon how the two issues relate to each other. I write police procedures, I write traditional homicide mysteries and psychological tensions. They’re underneath all flags of crime. So I hold them close enough to everybody to put in writing beneath Adam Croft. My Information is written by Adam Croft additionally under, however Amazon and other suppliers writer subject is Adam L. Croft, who’s shut enough that everyone is aware of that it's me. As you realize, hopefully my identify is enough to sell some nonfiction about indie writing, indie publishing, nevertheless it's additionally totally different sufficient that Amazon treats it as a special writer for classification. I mean, it is aware of that it's me, it's all the same-KDP dashboard, it does not disguise anything.

The duvet still has Adam Croft in it. However it's only a case, as you say, that additionally they don't contaminate these crops, which really makes life more durable, because then my psychological thrillers, my criminals, as you say, can be popping up in Joanna Penn, David Gaughran and Brian Meeks, which might confuse readers or getting people who are not in my targeted viewers, which then lowers the variety of ebook consumers, which may diminish my visibility on Amazon. It takes rather a lot under consideration this probably how the algorithm works. However I have no purpose to take a danger. So yeah, it's a small however delicate change because my center initial is there.

Orna Ross: Yes, and now we’ve got a number of members, it's not something we have been beforehand asked for, but in the last two years, we now have a whole lot of members who stated, "I would like more, you recognize, more pen on my ALLi profile I write this by identify and I write it, and the names are utterly totally different in writing, and utterly totally different in genres, and that's why they’re, and as you say, it's virtually like the assumption that this is how the algorithm works. might be positive because Amazon won’t ever inform you anything like that, so I feel it’s an fascinating demonstration of how significantly individuals take the entire process based mostly on their wish that a salesman who is able to deliver * non-affiliate * can whip himself. Boni, do you employ a special identify in your fiction when this novel is made, what is it executed?

Boni Wagner – Stafford: It's accomplished, oh my God, it's executed, it only takes seven years. And I still have a number of left for positive. Partly as a result of it is set in Russia. So I’ve to get there, I’ve in thoughts that I have to get there before I finish it. The thing about my fiction is, in reality, based mostly on the true story of my grandfather and his escape from Russia shortly after or shortly after the Russian Revolution. And so my grandfather's last identify is Wagner. So I really feel a robust want to get the Wagner identify on it. So perhaps my fiction ends up being Boni Wagner. Or Boni Wagner-Stafford and my nonfiction ebook is ultimately Boni Fox, who follows a journalistic piece. I don't know, however I feel I should determine soon.

Orna Ross: Sure, I feel you've just decided. what do you assume, Adam? I feel he simply decided.

Adam Croft: Yes, I imply, it makes numerous sense to the opposite. Until then, I also thought that Boni Fox as an unbiased its identify sounds to me slightly fictional means. Boni Wagner-Stafford has one –

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Right.

Adam Croft: The Double Impression of Info and Power – 19659002] Boni Wagner-Stafford: That's in all probability true. [19659002] Adam Croft: So I feel the first estimates are the place I'd go together with it. However yeah, you simply throw in a wrench for books with a Russian hyperlink and Exist in journalism, and that makes lots of sense to me, so I can completely see why you are a little embarrassed by it.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Yeah.

Orna Ross: It's a novel. It's at the written end of issues. I feel Boni Fox sounds extra like a business fiction writer with my money, you already know, and Boni Wagner sounds extra like literature and I feel, and you already know, it's great to talk about what you're going to do identical to, for instance, those who pay attention and convey up just some need to assume. So what do you assume is most necessary in case you have been just giving indie writers one, largest, and greatest tip about branding, what wouldn’t it be?

Boni Wagner-Stafford: First?

Orna Ross: Good then.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: I might say we spend a number of time talking about figuring out your reader. So determine your readers so you recognize who you’re writing to determine your readers so you already know who you’re advertising to. I might say the largest tip here is to turn it around. And this is equivalent to one thing we used to do in journalism as properly, like we might say, You realize, when you stop saying say hearth, you cover hearth and you go and watch hearth and you say, "Oh my dear, you know, the building is on fire." once you turn around and take a look at the individuals watching the hearth. There the story is. The story is just not on hearth. So with our guide branding we need to determine who the reader is, but let's flip round how do readers discover you? How do they acknowledge you? And that's the starting of building writer manufacturers. That might be what I might say.

Orna Ross: Unbelievable. Adam?

Adam Croft: I might say fiction, I'd say actual. I feel readers need to join with you personally, they need to see your character sensible. And like Facebook stay videos, if you realize, particularly if they are filmed, the front-facing digital camera on the telephone, which is unedited, without any special lighting results, such. And I feel in case you are private and pleasant, I feel it helps rather a lot. I feel for the sake of non-fiction I might say that my largest tip is probably ready to offer. I feel don't lock all your secrets and techniques and information behind the payroll. And prepare to blow your personal trumpet. What makes you an professional? Why should individuals take heed to you? Why should they trust you?

Orna Ross: Incredible. I, my favorite definition for brands, know that it is a promise to your reader. Ja-

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Yeah, that's a very good factor.

Orna Ross: And I feel that once you give it to me, and I, as you understand, you write to a very totally different audience all over the place these totally different types of desirous about manufacturers, in reality, I lengthy resisted the entire word "brands". And I really only use it because it's a phrase all of us understand what we imply. However I feel we, many writers, are a bit uncomfortable with the branding concept, it might feel fallacious, it might really feel, You understand, we mentioned the authenticity of the word earlier. And I feel it's so essential. And what Adam says is just about being unbiased, placing your self in there and it feels really uncomfortable, but really right here the link goes with the writer's brand. Then, when you have very totally different books, and when you have, for example, a line of data and fiction, and the promise I make to the reader, if I write, say, the author's information, is a very totally different promise to provide the reader , if I write a poem or write a historical fiction or a murder mystery, you recognize, they’re utterly totally different promises.

And once more, in case you only write standalone books as a result of not everyone writes collection, that's the similar thing. Every e-book may give a unique promise to the reader, but as a writer you then have to seek out what is one thing that unites all of them that additionally, like Boni stated, translate it, so it pertains to those particular individuals you are trying to succeed in. And it can be fairly difficult. I mean, the neatest thing I can say about branding is probably something you are able to do and you already do, and I don't should say it or as a result of you possibly can't do it and so it's helpful advice, but truly the neatest thing you can do is just write one factor and write it over and over and over and over again?

Properly, You recognize, just a few of us can do it, or else be very, very clear and you understand you make these massive walls between the several types of books you make, because the means I do it’s beneath one writer's identify, and , so I’ll cease, but when I had gone again in the starting figuring out what I know now, even for my own cause, I might have found it useful to have been clearer and go so far as to have a unique author identify and private thing, as a result of we’re all many cells, you already know really categorical the totally different features of our character and the totally different features of ourselves in our totally different strains. And if I began, I might, but in fact it will take quite a while. So you must assume by way of, and I additionally consider that we fall, like Adam stated, we fall into what we study by doing.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: One factor we're not pretty at, I know there's just a few minutes left. But one factor we haven't talked about is that there is one more reason for using the pen identify, which will not be associated with the manufacturers, and I see the query Caitlin requested. However one among the ones I work with a few writers who write a memoir together is a really delicate matter and incorporates stories from their relations. So certainly one of the ladies decides to use the pen identify because a member of the family asks her. Another writer doesn’t use the pen identify because his member of the family is okay with all these particulars coming out. So you already know, there’s also a purpose to decide on a pen identify as a result of you are trying to maintain one thing personal or respecting the needs of someone whose story is slicing yours.

Nevertheless it brings its own challenges of branding and as a result of in case you use the pen identify, do you make Fb Stay? in displaying your face? Can I show my face? And I feel in some instances it's nice because you don't try to unfold one thing to individuals, you just use the pen identify. It's not such as you're making an attempt to hide who you’re. But in some instances you might have to cover who you’re. So I feel it relies upon. What do you guys assume?

Orna Ross: I just requested if I can truly ask Caitlin's query on to you because it’s linked to what Boni stated there, however he’s and we don't have a lot time left. So it might be great to get him a solution. What in case you use the pen identify, is it nonetheless good to do Fb Reside? And in these instances, Caitlin worries me, and I feel otherwise you say your identify to Kate and it could be Kathleen because it's truly the unique Irish pronunciation, I'm unsure. However anyway, I'm fearful, because I write the US public, however I’m a South African. And Adam has just type of fallen. Mitä luulet tekniikan antavan meille jälleen kerran alas, luulen, että koska hän oli kaikki valmiina vastaamaan kysymykseen, mutta nimenomaan ja Boni, onko sinulla mielipiteesi siitä, onko Facebook Reside -sovelluksen tekeminen oikein, jos käytät kynän nimeä? Hämmentätkö yleisöäsi?

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Luulen, että se on jälleen kerran, riippuu olosuhteista. Se riippuu aiheesta. Se riippuu syystä kynän nimen tekemiseen. Mutta jos tiedät, voit olla etukäteen ja avoin siitä. En usko, että oikeasti olisi mitään ongelmaa, ja minusta, tiedätkö, on vaikeaa yhdistää kaikki samalla harjalla ja Adam on palannut nyt. Ehkä hän voi hypätä kanssamme.

Orna Ross: Luuletko, että se on kunnossa, Adam, en ole varma, kuulitko käyttävän kynän nimeä. Tiedätkö, jos käytät kynän nimeä, hyvä tehdä Fb Reside? Etsitkö hämmentäviä ihmisiä?

Adam Croft: Aion vastata Caitlinin kysymykseen. Minusta se on hieno. Luulen, että jos olet tilanteessa, jossa voit olla avoin ja rehellinen, että olet sama henkilö, se on hienoa. Sanon, kuten Boni sanoi, että on tilanteita, joissa et ehkä halua. Ja kuten tiedätte, ollessani eteläafrikkalainen, mutta kirjoittaen yhdysvaltalaista kaunokirjallisuutta, sanoisin useless, että se ei tehnyt Lee Childille mitään haittaa.

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Oikein.

Orna Ross: Tällä linjalla. I wish to take pleasure in a superb line, and I favored that line very much. Yeah, so uh, yeah, I undoubtedly with international indie, you already know, we’re all writing, all of us are writing in one place and have readers in different locations that’s actually, really widespread. And in reality, individuals love that. So I feel myself that readers, once you’re clear, when you clearly clarify what’s happening, readers will accept all types of issues from authors, notably authors of books they’ve already read and loved. So in case you’ve received a superb cause for it, it may possibly truly be a part of what makes you fascinating. And the extra you might be yourself, you realize, and have one thing happening, no matter it may be, quite than just, you understand, enterprise as traditional, the more individuals are likely to develop that type of heart and soul connection which is what they are on the lookout for once they turn to you and your books.

Our time absolutely flies, I have to say, 30 minutes when there are three of us. And so I really feel like we’ve type of, you understand, acquired in there a bit bit on this matter of branding. It’s in all probability one thing we’re going to return to because it’s super necessary. We’ll in all probability take one other facet of branding in a future present and dive down into it. After this shall be deciding what we’re going to deliver you subsequent month. We’re not quite positive but but and simply earlier than you allow, and simply we’re ending each podcast now, every broadcast, now with an invitation so that you can take one facet of something that we mentioned tonight, something it is perhaps around the pen identify factor specifically or it may be some other facet of branding, and just go away and do a bit of free writing around the matter and provide you with something that moves your personal relationship together with your model along slightly bit, slightly bit alongside the line.

So, my because of Boni, and to Adam, and we shall be back. Our gig here is on the second Monday on Facebook stay, each second Monday of the month. So in case you’re interested in writing fiction and or nonfiction, that’s what we’ll be speaking about on the second Monday of the month and the podcast if you want to hear with the transcript and so on shall be on the blog on Wednesday next. So thanks very a lot for joining us, everyone, and till we see you once more joyful writing and publishing. Bye!

Boni Wagner-Stafford: Bye!

Adam Croft: Bye bye!

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